GI: How long has APB been in development?

Jones: About just over three years.

GI: Just over three years? Have you taken any cues from other open-world games with multiplayer elements like GTAIV and Saints Row 2, or things that are going on in MMORPG space?

Jones: I would say nothing from GTA or Saint's Row, because I mean they went the simple route and they did their multiplayer and that was like 'Oh you know, let's just do deathmatches.' Which is fair enough, they were mostly single player games. From the MMORPG side, obviously there are things like customization which obviously we want to push to a new level. A little bit of progression, but nothing stats based or anything like that. And obviously community. People feel they belong with friends and they want to expand the community and create guild, or clans, as we call them. So we wanted to take some of the social elements from those games, and in terms of pure, pure gameplay fun—I think I've said this a couple of times—something like Counter-Strike. Because let's face it, people sometimes say, 'Where's the longevity in it?' For me, when they say 'Where's the content, what's the overarching story, where's the 200 hours to consume in terms of content?'—because they always think it's like an RPG—and I say 'Well, you know, hey, I played Counter-Strike for more that 200-300 hours.' And that had just great gameplay. So all I wanted to do was just match the two. You can actually have a lot of fun just through great, great gameplay. And then all this extra stuff we bring, like persistence, customization, clans, and all kind of stuff that the Counter-Strike players would have loved, I'm sure. You could have gone to Counter-Strike and said, 'We're completely unique, look at us, everything is persistent and tracked,' and that would have been great for the Counter-Strike players. So I would, yeah, there are a lot of community aspects from the online games, and you know great, great core action like Counter-Strike and Crackdown.

GI: Game development in general is a series of leaps of faith. When you're making something like APB, which is extremely ambitious with your community and hundreds of people being there simultaneously, do you go into that thinking, 'We're making this game that's going to support this…Oh jeez are that many people going to want to play?' Is that a consideration?

Jones: Always, yes. At some point, somebody has to take the lead and say, 'I am absolutely sure.' I play games as well. I want to play this game. Even on paper I wanted to play this game. It's a hell of a lot more work to build it from some paper, and some things you put on paper don't work. And you have to recognize that and change things. Some things even surprise you, things that you wouldn't think would work actually do work. It is a leap of faith, but I think the industry needs it, because there are a lot of companies out there that are quite happy to do, 'Well we want to be very much like game but here's the one thing that we innovate on.' Whereas, we're the kind of company that says 'Well screw it,' somebody’s gotta do some crazy stuff and try out some completely unique ideas. Luckily we're in the position to do that. I've always liked experimenting with games in that way.

GI: With a game this big are you able to kind of turn ideas around pretty quickly? For instance, you've got an instance with 100 people, do you just keep plugging away with 100 playtesters?

Jones: Absolutely. That's why we've been very quiet on the game. And that's why we've been very quiet about trying to say anything, because we had some ideas we thought would work. A year ago we could have said, 'These are exactly the features in the game,' and when we tried them go, 'Oh... well let's try this, let's try that.' And that's why we've had to be quiet. We had to try, we had to test. We have to see what's fun throughout and what's not fun. We've been quite happy to do that, and we've had the time to do that, to make sure when we do deliver it that it's been through a great process of iteration.

GI: I have a feeling from your answer there that I can kind of deduce your answer for this next question. Do you think there is a tendency in the game industry to show your hand too early in the process?

Jones: Absolutely. And I can understand why. You want to talk, you want to get people excited. We took a lot of flak for not saying anything for two years since we did Crackdown. But, saying too much- some developers are known about spouting off about all the great things that are going to be in their game, but are on paper. Let's face it, a lot of them don't deliver and it doesn't quite work. It's hard, though, because the fans want to know. They want to hear about all the cool stuff that is going to be in there. It is a hard balancing act. With APB, we decided to stay very quiet and just develop as much as we can before we start to show people and talk about it.

GI: I think something else that's been kind of quiet in addition to everything else about the game, is it in development for consoles? Or is it strictly a PC affair right now?

Jones: Yeah, we've just now we've strictly said we're just launching on PC first. We're still evaluating. We're still deciding which route to go down on that. Only now are people starting to talk about persistent online games. … Although we like to take risks, we don't want to be trailblazing brand new games and trailblaze on consoles as well. So let's at least trailblaze on the PC to create something very, very fresh and very, very new. And when as soon as the time is right, we'll start to look at the consoles.

GI: So when you're designing the game, then, if even consoles are a possibility do you kind of think about that in terms of 'This would not work on a console, so maybe we should...'

Jones: Yeah, it's such a huge market now that you can't ignore it. Although we're not designing specifically for it, if you look at the style of our game it's very much you could see the core action would easily work on a console, unlike maybe an RPG which, you know, fifty key bindings, a mouse, and all that kind of stuff... So, we've been very thoughtful of that all the way through, so that when we do make a hard decision the path is as easy as possible.

GI: Talking more about the game specifically, say for instance I pick up APB and I create my character, start the game, and I'm walking down the sidewalk. Can you guide me through what I would expect to see right out of the gate?

Jones: Well you've got to make a choice; Enforcer or Criminal?

GI: We'll be a criminal, just for the sake of it.

Jones: Exactly. You walk into the game, you start walking down the street and it will be a dynamic city. You'll see hundreds of pedestrians going about, you'll see vehicles driving around. Then for example, you may hear a car screeching around the corner, which is something the NPCs don't tend to do, they tend to drive pretty normally. So you see a car screeching around the corner, kind of drifting, and then two seconds later you see enforcers with lights flashing screaming past as well. Now you may even hear them screaming and shouting because we have things like 3D positional voice, so you get that experience to it as well. So then you think, 'Oh I wonder what's going on there,' you can walk forward down the street and you can hear some gunshots off to your left a few hundred meters. Then you take a walk down there and you may find a big firefight on where there's some smashed windows, there's a car smashed into the front of a store. And there's some criminals hiding behind it, they've been trying to rob the store, and across the street we have a couple of enforcers trying to take them down. That's just the initial like, 'Whoa, there's a lot of stuff happening in this city.' So that's kind of like the very first initial impression.

GI: So say for instance you're not a very good shot, could you have a viable go at it being a getaway driver, or if you wanted to, could you achieve a real level of celebrity just by being a fashion designer?

Jones: Yeah, absolutely. We looked at all the roles that there are in APB, and there are a lot. So for example, you talked about being a getaway driver. So let's say it takes time to steal cars in APB, it's very subtle, the mechanic we've done. So for example you can't just- like in any of these games somebody is driving down the street and you can jack the car. But basically, whoever you jack it from and the pedestrians around will see you, so they will phone in and immediately you'll get enforcers matched to you, because you've committed a crime. A pretty brazen one, in broad daylight, in front of people. Now if you're trying to steal a car because you want to actually use it for a mission where you don't want to use your own car because you want to use it to transport something, but really what you wanted to do was steal a low key car because you wanted to stay off the radar because it's only part of the big mission. So those are the kind of things—so then what you're going to want to do is go down backstreets and find a car parked somewhere and take time and try to steal it without setting the alarm off. And that's something you can get better at, by the way. The more cars you steal, the more it improves your skill in that area. So we do have some sort of skill advancement as well, so you can get better at that, you know. So if someone says, in effect, 'We need a stolen car for this mission,' you might be the guy to say, 'Yeah I'll do that, I've come to know where the quieter areas are and nobody will see me, I'm pretty fast at stealing cars, just give me a minute and I'll bring it for that mission.' Then you may be known as the "wheels guy" in the game.

GI: So with stealing cars, is it pretty much you walk over there, press a button, and some numbers happen like behind the scenes, or is there minigame?

Jones: No it's not like a minigame, I'm not into that kind of 'minigames in big games.' So you're right, it takes you time to jimmy the lock. That's what we call it in Europe, I don't know if you call it the same thing in the US...

GI: Yeah.

Jones: Okay, and then you have to hotwire it as well. So there's a couple things you have to go through, and that just speeds up. It's very much gamey like that.

GI: Also in the demo yesterday, you kind of talked about how players are going to be able to create their own stories which I thought was a really cool idea, rather than just shoehorning plot. There seems like there's kind of a tendency to- like there's some kind of obligation like you've got a writer on staff and you might as well make him work...

Jones: I mean, I like games. They're all about people having their individual experiences. And after two minutes they go, 'Wow that was just awesome, I've never seen that before.' And you get that once you build these kind of living cities and... compound interactions. Those are things that make moments for me in games. Because it's something like I could be playing for hours and hours and just by chance, if all the compound interactions are right it's like, 'Whoa, that was so cool!' Whereas if everything is scripted, you know... And I want to come away with that feeling from the game. This is a very different online space. If you go into an RPG, you never come away thinking, 'Wow, that fight with that spider was awesome! I pressed 1,1,2,4, instead of 1,1,2,3 this time and it just rocked!' [laughs]

You know? You play those games for progression and loot. You don't really play it for the gameplay itself. And that's fine, that's kind of good in some respects. It's kind of good just to hang out with your friends. You play for two hours and you don't go, 'Phew, that was just awesome!' It's like, 'Ah, I got some loot.' And you're happy with that because it's your achievement. But in this game, it has to be about these amazing moments.

GI: Especially with other people in customized games, it's not even a matter of pretending I'm a policeman, it's more of like ‘These guys are in a gang, and they're kind of notorious and I've killed one of them. Now because they're actually real people they have a real vendetta,’ whether or not that's even scripted.

Jones: Absolutely. Sometimes you get matched in this game—because we show you who you're matched against—and you start to know the people. And I like that feeling, because I press tab to see who's coming after me and I might then go, 'Aw, s---.' [laughs]

And that's great, you never get that in most other games. There’s that feeling, ‘I know that guy.’ Then you think, 'I kind of know how he operates.' So all those subtleties start to make a difference.

GI: I think something else that's very subtle that I think people are really going to understand why it's important once they see it is that little five-second song. Because when it just says 'glockkilla69 has killed you,' you just scan the text. But if you hear that song then it's kind of a passive, 'Oh god, that song again, that guy...'

Jones: Yeah, then it's immediately, 'that guy...' And you start to get these love-hate relationships. And when we talk about community, I really want people to get it from that kind of stuff. A very personalized community.

GI: In a game like this, the city itself is going to be critical. It's gotta be an interesting place that feels like an actual city. Can you talk about the character of the city, like some touchstones you used?

Jones: Yeah, it's what we call a city in conflict. Effectively the authorities are trying to pull the city back and bring some control over it. It's through vigilante, so these are forces that are pretty rough. I use—I love programs like The Shield with Vic Mackey and Strike Team. They get stuff done! [laughs] In a certain way… It has that kind of edginess as well. So you're never quite sure, maybe the criminals are actually just repressed, and maybe the enforcement is just a bit too severe. So we kind of play off that a little bit in the story, it's not necessarily about really good versus really evil, it's actually quite close in some respects.

GI: So is the city itself like a coastal city like and LA or New York?

Jones: Actually, it has both, we have the big city called San Paro and you go into districts of the city. So for example we have the financial district; high rises, kind of clean, lots of advertising, etc. We also have the waterfront district, which is a really nice beach; restaurants, night clubs, very Miami-like kind of feel to it. We actually have districts in the city with very different kinds of feel to them.

GI: So with the various districts are they... say I get in a car and I'm being chased from one district to another is it like a loading screen or is it just kind of fluid?

Jones: No, you actually choose the kind of district you want to go into... to fit your mood. There's different NPCs that you work for each district. You kind of make a decision on which part of the city you want go into. They're huge, huge districts.

GI: So how do you keep people from doing that while keeping the illusion of... do you put roadblocks up on the freeways kind of thing from keeping them from doing that...?

Jones: No, the way we've designed the city is just kind of smart. There's no road that kind of leads to... you know, everything kind of leads around, like the freeways lead around, there's no ramp that would ever actually take you out of the district. When you're playing you never notice it, like how GTA sections off.

GI: So it's a fictional city, but is it set in the United States, or is it...?

Jones: There's definitely a bit of a US feel about it. Yeah, you drive on the wrong side of the road like you guys in the states do compared to us in the UK. [laughs] So you'll be used to it. It just has a modern, urban, contemporary feel. It's definitely set in today, is the main thing. It's a good, modern, contemporary setting.

GI: Is there like a single-player experience that if someone wants to just drop in and do some missions?

Jones: Yeah, and that's why I'm always kind of nervous about this term MMO, because to be honest to me this is the best single-player game out there. It's an interesting statement to make, but you go on and you can effectively play like you can the Crackdowns and GTAs. But let's face it, when it's always real players who are the ones who oppose you... that's a thousand times better than A.I. For a game to achieve that, even if you're just playing single player, to me it sets a new precedent in single player gaming as well.

GI: The game is based in an enhanced reality, and it looks very stylized, but are there buffs or superhero augments or anything like that, or is everyone pretty much human?

Jones: No, we kept it as close to reality as we can in that respect. We've let you effectively enhance your character a little bit. There are what we call functional modifications you can make to yourself, your vehicle, and your weapons. And other kind of normal things on weapons like 'okay, I've got less recoil,' the kind of things you'd really attach. Same with vehicles. Basically tune the engine, more grip, you can do that as well. In terms of the character, I actually liken it to if you work out seven days a week you can become pretty fit and pretty strong, but not to the point where you're super human. So we came to think of it like 15-20 percent, in terms of 'this guy is way fitter, he can run a little faster for example, he's got technically more health. So, you can do that, but the main thing we have completely removed is that it's not tied to items in any way. That I have to wear this to get that extra 10 percent fitness, effectively. So it does break the reality a little bit because you kind of plug it into your character, but we really wanted to say, 'Look, that has nothing to do with fashion and customization.'

GI: So with weapons customization, can you do cosmetic stuff too, like if you wanted to have a purple pistol?

Jones: No, but that's definitely something that I've been crying out for and that we want to do, to be honest, as you've seen how in depth we go with our customization. When we do announce it for weapons I want it to be mind-blowing just like the rest of the customization is.

GI: It's kind of insane what you guys have done so far.

Jones: So we'd have to have insane weapons customization. So that's something I'm looking forward to, but it's not there for the first edition.

GI: You mentioned progressing your skill and breaking into cars. Can you talk about a couple of other examples where you character progresses?

Jones: I think there is explosives... I think that's the only two we've announced, so we're going to announce the others a little bit later on.

GI: How does damage work? Do you regenerate if you stay behind cover for a while or are there health packs?

Jones: Basically, most of it's regeneration. We've left health packs in so that it's something you can use, it's something that you can equip and take out with you. But most of the time it is through regeneration. There's no health bar above your head or anything, it's all hidden away and very subtle at the edge of the screen, etc. to show that you've taken damage and you're pretty low. But if you can get out, start to take cover or get away someplace quieter and regenerate, then you can get back into the action.

GI: With spawns, do they work like you can choose to spawn on one of your teammates, or are they kind of in a central area?

Jones: Only when you first go in, then after that anytime you die we spawn you roughly five seconds away from the action. So it's not too much of a penalty, and gets you back into it without it being a pain.

GI: With the death penalty in general, have you done anything to give people a compelling reason to want to stay alive, like do you get a bonus for staying alive?

Jones: Yes, every time you finish any kind of mission or open-world objective it looks at everything you've achieved. If you died, how much health you lost, everything is stat tracked. So if you really want to max out in terms of leagues and your performance and how good a player you are, you really want to try and avoid dying and you really want to max out everything because it's all figured into the rewards at the end.

GI: In the demo they said that you can gain celebrity by being someone who gets killed a lot?

Jones: Yeah, in terms of leaderboards and titles, we want to make sure that even the poor players may think, 'Oh, I'm not very good, but hey, I have this title... I have died the most.' So it's about being famous for something in the game.

GI: How do you present that, I mean is it something you're talking about now? Because I imagine it has to be something a little more compelling than a list of names and what you're notorious for.

Jones: Yes, so we're not revealing too much, but let's just say if we wanted to give you something through our customization system which only you can then have access to in the customization because you are the person that has achieved that status, then obviously that's the kind of thing we want you to display in the game. There's lots of things we have in terms of what we call ‘display points,’ both in the game, the character, etc, which you can really start to put those outward facing things onto.

GI: Is there something similar with clans also? We've seen a lot of footage with people wearing hockey masks. I mean that's a cool, iconic thing, but do you think if you made that available to everyone a large portion of people are going to want to wear those?

Jones: A lot of customization you actually have to obtain, through progression or through reward. Some of it is temporary, because it will go to winners, like league winners each week. We these have amazing bronze statues we can make and they're an exact copy of your character and we start to place those in the city as well. You can really start to say, 'Wow, it's my first time getting a bronze statue in the city and everyone can see me as they drive past.'

GI: As a gamer, you know that you've got the two heads of each faction, and as a player the first thing you're going to want to do is find the head of the opposing faction and kill them. Is that possible?

Jones: No. That's not something that's possible, basically. You're never PVP unlocked to him. He sits in his place, they have their own locations where they hang out, they're pretty well guarded so basically you go there, speak to them, pledge them, and start to work with them.

GI: I think that social area is like a really cool mixing place where you're not completely isolated from the other faction and it's kind of a neutral zone. Can you describe the vibe from that?

Jones: Yeah, it's the first place you go into, it's where you access all the customization tools, it's also a great display point where we allow people, for example, if you are the person who stole the most cars ever, and you get display points so you can show off your greatest customizations, and the gangs and the players who have achieved certain status they get display points in here. So it changes every time you go in depending on how the world is looking from the player's perspective they get to choose what to display in there. We have about 250-300 that we can fit into any of these social areas. It's a great place to hang out, to chat, and you can chat to the other side and everything. And we have a couple clubs on either side that only allow members of the same faction in. So you want to go in there if you want to chat and don't want the other side to hear you planning something. It's a good place to hang out until your friends come online for example. Just chat and wait.

GI: And that entire area supports voice over IP?

Jones: Yes

GI: What does that sound like with 300 people?

Jones. Eh, well it depends on which part you're in. And we do kind of reduce your hearing range a little bit for things like that. With the open world voice over IP, a lot of people say, 'oh, I just want to switch to a channel which is just me and my clan,' and of course we allow that as well. But we want to try all those kinds of things out. It can become chaotic, but hey that's part of the fun of the game.

GI: So if you run into some members of a rival clan in that social area can you set up a match like, 'Let's go to the financial district and...'

Jones: You basically do that between you. You say, 'Well, you know, okay, let's pick a city and let's go and let's sort this out.' So you just pick a city or district that you know there is enough space for you all to go into. Roughly if you're the same size, you can't kind of dictate the matchmaking system yourself, because that would just lead to people obviously exploiting it. But going and coming and committing crimes, and they're roughly the same skill level and same numbers, because it's 100 players, if it's 50 against 50 they're going to get matched pretty quickly. And we are looking at potentially opening up—pretty shortly after launch—grudge districts where they can actually say, 'Okay, well no stats will feed back, but if you really have a grudge and you really want to sort it out, we can give you your own private area to go into and do that.